3 1/4 p.m.--
The President having arrived--the Choir sung an hymn Elder Amasa Lyman prayed.
The Prophet while I address you on the subject which was contempd in the fore
pt. of the Con.--as the Wind blows very hard it will be hardly possible
for me to make you all hear
| 3 o clock P M April Sunday 7th 1844
The following important edefying & interesting discourse was deliverd by
President Joseph Smith to about
twenty ten thousand souls upon the
subject of the death of Elder King Follett
I now call the attention of this congregation while I addres you upon the subject
of the dead
Choir sung a Hymn Prayer by Er A. Lyman.
Prest. J. Smith called the attention of the con.
upon the subjects contemplated in the fore part of this
con.--as the wind blows hard it will be impossible
to make hear unless profound attention--
The president having arrived _ the choir sung a hymn Elder A. Lyman offered prayer
The president then arose and called the attention of the congregation upon the
subjects which were contemplated in the fore part of the conference. As the wind
blows very hard, it will be hardly possible for me to make you all hear unless
there is profound attention.
Joseph commenced speaking on the subject of the Dead--relative to the death of
elder King Follett who was crushed in a well. by the falling of a tub of rock on him.--
Most Important Subject - The Dead
it is of the greatest importance & the most solemn of any that cod. occupy
our attentn. & that is the subj of the dead on the dece of our bror.
Follit who was crushed to death in a well--& inasmuch as there are a
great many in this congre who live in this city & who have lost
friend I shall speak in genl. & offer you my ideas so far as I have
ability & so far as I shall be inspd. by the H S. to dwell on
his subjt. I want your prayer faith the inspn. of Alm God
to say things that are true & shall carry the testimony to your hearts
& pray that he may streng my lungs--stay the winds--& let the pray
of the Saints to heaven appear--for the prayers of the righteous avail
much & I verily believe that your prayers shall be heard. Before I enter
in this investign. fully of the subjt. that is lying before us
The case of our Beloved Brother King Follett, who was crushed to death in a well, as well
as many others who have lost friends will be had in mind this afternoon, & I shall speak
upon the subject in general as far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to treat upon
|the subject it, I want the Prayers & faith of the saints that I may have the Holy
Ghost, that the
testimony may carry conviction to your minds of the truth of what I shall say, & pray
that the Lord may strengthen my lungs, there is strength here, & your prayers will be
herd. Before I enter upon an investigation of this subject,
Subject of the greatest importance and most solemn that could
occupy our attention. the subject of the dead been requested
to speak on the subject on the decease of bro Follet who was
crushed to death &c--I have been requested to speak by his
friends & relatives & inasmuch as great many here in con--
who live in this City as well as elsewhere who have deceased
friends feel disposed to speak on the subject in general and
offer my ideas as far as ability & as far as inspired by H.
S. Want your prayers faith the inspiration of Almighty God
the Gift of H. S. that I may set forth truth things that
can easily be comprehended and will carry the testimony to your
hearts. Pray that the L may strengthen my lungs control the
wind that it may enter into the ear of the L of Sabbath. The
fervent effectual prayer of righteous men availeth much--. Will
speak in order to hold out Before enter fully into the investigation
It is of the greatest importance, and the most solemn of any that
can occupy our attention, and that is, the subject of the dead; on
the decease of our brother Follett, who was crushed to death in a
well, I have been requested to speak by his friends and relatives,
and inasmuch as there are a great many in this congregation who
live in this city, as well as elsewhere, and who have lost friends,
I feel disposed to speak on the subject in general, and offer you
my ideas so far as I have ability, and so far as I shall be inspired
by the Holy Spirit to dwell on this subject. I want your prayers
and faith, the instruction of Almighty God and the gift of the Holy
Ghost, that I may set forth things that are true, that can easily
be comprehended, and shall carry the testimony to your hearts; pray
that the Lord may strengthen my lungs, stay the winds and let the
prayers of the saints to heaven appear, that it may enter into the
ear of the Lord of Sabaoth; for the effectual prayers of righteous
men availeth much, and I verily believe that your prayers shall be
heard before I enter into the investigation fully of the subject that
is laying before me. Before entering fully into the investigation,
I wish to make a few preliminaries in order that you may understand
when I come to it I do not calculate to please your ears with oratory with
much leang. but I calculate to edify you with simple truths from Heaven.
I wish to pave the way, and bring up the subject from the beginning that you may
understand. I do not intend to please you with oratory but with the simple truths
of heaven to Edify you.
wish to pave the way--make a few preliminaries--bring the
subject from the beginning in order that you may understand
the subject when I come to it. Do not calculate to please
your ears with superfluity of words oratory much learning,
but edify you by the simple truths of heaven.
I wish to pave the way: I will make a few preliminaries, in
order that you may understand the subject when I come to it.
I do not calculate to please your ears with superfluity of
words or oratory, or with much learning; but I calculate to
edify you with the simple truths from heaven.
The Beginning of Creation
I wish to go back to the begin: of creation--it is necessary to know the
mind decree & ordinatn. of the great Eloi beging at the creatn. & it is necy.
for us to have un understandg. of God in the beging. if we start right it is
very easy for us to go right all the time but if we start wrong, it is hard to
Go to the morn of creation to understand
|of the decrees of
the Eloheem at the Creation. It is necessary for us to have an
understanding of God at the beginning, if we get a good start
first, we can go right, but if you start wrong, you may go wrong.
First place wish to go back to the beginning of creation.
There the starting point in order to fully acquainted with
purposes, decrees &c of the Great Eloheim that sits in the
hev. for us to take up beginning at the creation necessary
to understand something of God himself in the beginning. If
we start right easy to go right all the time--start wrong
hard matter to get right.
First of all, or in the beginning,
In the first place, I wish to go back to the beginning
of creation; there is the starting point, in order to be
fully acquainted with the mind, purposes, decrees, &c. of
the great Eloheim, that sits in yonder heavens, it is necessary
for us to have an understanding of God himself in the beginning.
If we start right, it is easy to go right all the time; but if we
start wrong, it is a hard matter to get right.
If men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.
Character (Nature) of God
There are very few who understand rightly the char of God--They do not comprehend
any thing that is past or that which is to come & com: but little more than
the brute beast if a man learns know nothing more than to eat, drink, sleep, &
does not comprehend any of the desn. of God the Beast com the same
thing eats drin sleeps--[k]noes nothing more & how are we to do it by
no or. way than the inspn of A. God.
I want to go back to the begin & so get you into a more lofty sphere
than what the human being generally understands I want to ask this
cong: every man wom: & child to ansr. the questn. in
their own heart what kind of a being is God
But few understand the character of God. they do not know they do not understand
their relationship to God. the world know no more than the brute beast, & they
know no more than to eat drink and sleep & this is all man knows about God or
his exhistence, except what is given by the inspiration of the Almighty. go then
to the beginning that you may understand.
Few beings in the world who understand the character of God and
do not comprehend their own character. They cannot compren the
beginning nor the end neit their own relation and is but little
above the beast. If a man comprehends nothing more than to eat sleep
arise and not any more and what the designs of Jehov what better
than the beast it does the same thing--eat drink sleep & comprehends
present and knows as much as we, unless we are able to com by
the inspiration of A. God. Go back to beginning to lift you
minds into a more exalted standing than the human mind is want Want to ask
this this congregation every man, woman, &c what kind of a being is God.
There are a very few beings in the world who understand rightly the
character of God. They do not comprehend any thing, that which is
past, or that which is to come; and consequently, but little above
the brute beast. If a man learns nothing more than to eat, drink,
sleep, and does not comprehend any of the designs of God, the beast
comprehends the same thing; it eats, drinks, sleeps, knows nothing
more; yet knows as much as we unless WE are able to comprehend by
the inspiration of Almighty God. I want to go back to the beginning,
and so lift your minds into a more lofty sphere, a more exalted
understanding; than what the human mind generally understands.
I want to ask this congregation, every man, woman and child, to
answer the question in their own heart, what kind of a being is
God? ask yourselves.
what kind of being is God?--
What Kind of Being is God
I agn. rept. the questn. what kind of a being is God does any man or woman
know have any of you seen, him heard him, communed with him, here is the
questn. that will peradventure from this time henceforth occupy your attentn.--
I ask this congregation what kind of a being is God? turn your
thoughts in your hearts, & say have any of you seen or herd him
or communed with him this is a question that may occupy your attention
I repeat the question what kind of a being is God. Any man or
woman that know, any of you seen him? heard him? communed with
him? Here a subject that will peradventure occupy your attention
while you live--
I again repeat the question, what kind of a being is God? Does
any man or woman know? have any of you seen him, heard him,
communed with him? Here is the question that will peradventure
from this time henceforth, occupy your attention.
Eternal life to know God.--if man does not know God, has not
Eternal life.--if I am so fortunate as to comprehend and explain
the [incomplete thought] let every one sit in silence and never
lift your voice against the servants of God again.
Must know the only living and true God and Jesus Christ. to have eternal life,
Essential to Know God
The Apos: says this is Eternal life to know God & J. C. who he has
sent--that is eternl. life if any man enquire what kind of a being is God
if he will search diligently his own heart that unless he knows God he has no
eternal life--my first object is to find out the character of the true God &
if I shod. be the man to com: the God & I com: them to your heart
let every man & woman henceforth shut their mouths & never say anything agst.
the man of God & If I do not do it I have no right to revn. inspn. if all
are [indecipherable word] to the God, they will all be as bad off as I am. they
will all say I ought to be d d. there is not a man or wom who wod not breath
out an anathema on my head & some wod feel authd. to take away my life--
The scriptures inform us that this is eternal life to know the
onwly wise God & Jesus Christ whom He has sent. If any inquire
what kind of a being God is, I would say If you dont know God
you have not eternal life, go back & find out what kind of a being
God is. If I am the man that shows you what kind of a being God is,
then let evry man & woman sit in silence and never lift up his
hand against me again if I do not do it, I will not make any
further pretensions to inspiration or to be a prophet, I would
be like the rest of the world, fals teachers, and you would
want to take my life.
The apostle says this is eternal life to know &c" that is
eternal life if any man inquires what kind of being is God
casts his mind to know--if the declaration of the ap be
true he will realize that he has not eternal life. There can
be eternal life on no other principle. 1st object to find the
character of the only wise & true God.
I comprehend so that
the spirit seals it upon you hearts, let every man and woman
put his hand on his mouth & never say anything against the
man of God again. But if I fail it becomes my
duty to renounce all my pretensions to inspiration &c and
if I should do so should I not be as bad as
all the rest of the world. Not a man would not breath
anathema if they knew I was a false prophet.
Some would take away my life.
The apostle says this is eternal life, to know God and Jesus Christ,
whom he has sent. If any man enquire what kind of a being is God, if
he will search diligently his own heart, if the declaration of the
apostle by true, he will realize that he has not eternal life, there
can be eternal life on no other principle. My first object is, to
find out the character of the only wise and true God, and if I should
be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to
your hearts so that the spirit seals it upon you, let every man and
woman henceforth put their hand on their mouth and never say any thing
against the man of God again; but if I fail, it becomes my duty to
renounce all my pretensions to revelations, inspirations, &c., and
if all are pretensions to God, they will all be as bad off as I am
at any rate. There is not a man but would breathe out an anathema,
if they knew I was a false prophet; and some would feel authorized
to take away my life.
Every man has a right to be a false prophet. as well as a true prophet.--
False Prophet? Not a Capital Crime
if any man is authd. to take away my life who say I am a false teacher
so I shod. have the same right to all false teacher & where wod. be the
end of the blood & there is no law in the heart of God that wod. allow
anyone to interfere with the rights of man every man has the right to be
a false as well as a true prophet--If I show verily that I have the truth
of God & show that ninety-nine of 100 are false prop. it wod. deluge
the whole world with blood.
But you might just as well take the lives of other fals teachers as mine
if I was fals, But meddle not with any man for his religion, evry
government ought to permit evry man to enjoy his religion. I will
show the world is wrong by showing what God is.
If any man is authorized to take my life because I am a false teacher then
upon the same principle am I authorized to take the life of every false
teacher and who would not be the sufferer--but no man is authorized to take
away life in consequence of their religion. All laws and governments
ought to tolerate whether right or wron. If I show that I have the truth
of God & 99/100 are false teachers while they pretend to hold the keys of
God & go to killing them because &c would it not deluge the world in blood.
If any man is authorized to take away my life, who says I am a
false teacher: then upon the same principle am I authorized to
take away the life of every false teacher, and where would be
the end of blood, and who would not be the sufferer. But no man
is authorized to take away life in consequence of their religion;
which all laws and governments ought to tolerate, right or wrong.
If I show verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that
ninety-nine out of a hundred are false teachers, while they
pretend to hold the keys of God, and to kill them because they
are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.
|in the beginning. before the world was.
Prophet to Help Us Know God
I want you all to know God to be familiar with him & if I can bring
you to him all persecut. agst. me will cease & let you know that I
am his servt. for I speak as one havg. authy. and not as a scrib[e]
open your ears & eyes all ye Ends of the Earth & hear & I am going to prove.
it to you with the Bible & I am going to tell you the desns. of God to the
human race & why he interferes with the affairs of man
I am going to inquire after God so that you may know God, that persecution
may cease concerning me, I go back to the beginning to show what kind of a
being God was, I will tell you & hear it, O Earth!
Want you should all now God--be familiar--If I can get you to know I can
bring to him.& if so you will cease to persecute me. I speak in authority.
What kind of a being was God in the beginning. Hear all ye ends of the
earth. I am going to prove it by the bible & the relation the human
family sustains with God.
I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him, and if I can
bring you to him, all persecutions against me will cease; you will know
that I am his servant, for I speak as one having authority--
What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear
all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to tell you the designs of God
to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.
--Is a man like one of yourselves.--should you see him to day. you would
see a man in fashion and in form. Adam was formed in his likeness.- - - - - - -
||God: a man like one of us, even like Adam.
God Was A Mortal Once On Another Earth
God himself who sits enthroned in yonder Heavens is a man like
unto one of yourselves who holds this world in its orbit & upholds
all things by his power if you were to see him today you wod. see
him a man for Adam was a man like in fashion & image like unto him
Adam wakd talked & convd. with him as one man talks & com:
with anor. in order to speak for the consoln. of those who mourn for
the loss of their friend it is necy. to understand the char. &
being of God for I am going to tell you what sort of a being of God.
God who sits in yonder heavens is a man like yourselves
That God if you were to see him to day that holds the worlds
you would see him like a man in form, like yourselves. Adam was
made in his image and talked with him & walkd with him. In order
to understand the dead for the consolation of those that mourn, I
want you to understand God and how he comes to be God.
1st God that sits enthroned is a man like one of yourselves. That is the
great secret. If the veil was rent to day & the great God who holds
this world in its sphere or its orbit--the planets--if you were to see
him to day you would see him in all the person image, very form of man,
For Adam was created in the very fashion of God. Adam recieved
instruction walked talked as one man with another. In order to understand
the subject of the ded [dead] for the consolation of those who mourn
for the loss of their friends necessary they should understand Going to
tell you how God came to be God.
First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like
unto one of yourselves, that is the great secret. If the vail was rent
to-day, and the great God, who holds this world in its orbit, and upholds
all things by his power; if you were to see him to-day, you would see him
in all the person, image and very form as a man; for Adam was created in
the very fashion and image of God; Adam received instruction, walked
talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of
those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary they
should understand the character and being of God, for I am going to
tell you how God came to be God.
refute the Idea that God was God from all eternity -
Not God from all Eternity.
God Not Always God
for he was God from the begin of all Eternity & if I do not refute it--
truth is the touchstone they are the simple and first princ: of truth
to know for a certainty the char. of God that
We suppose that God was God from eternity. I will refute that
Idea, or I will do away or take away the veil so you may see.
It is the first principle to know that
We have imagined that God was God from all eternity--
These are incomprehensible to some but are the first
principle of the gospel--to know that
We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are
incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first
principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the
character of God, that
|Jesus said as the father had power in himself even so hath the son
Once on a planet with flesh and blood, like Christ. As the father hath
life in himself &c.
We May Converse With God As With Another Man
we may conv with him same as a man & God himself the father
of us all dwelt on a Earth same as Js. himself did & I will shew
it from the Bible--I wish I had the trump of an Arch An. I cod.
tell the story in such a manner that pers: shod cease forever--
J. Sd as the Far. hath power in himself even so hath the Son
power to do what
we may converse with him and that he once was a man like us, and the Father was
once on an earth like us, And I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it
The scriptures inform us mark it that Jesus Christ said As the Father hath
power in himself, so hath the son power in himself to do what
we may converse with him as one man with another & that he was once as
one of us and was on a planet as Jesus was in the flesh--If I have
the privilege could tell the story in such a manner as persecution would
cease forever. Said Jesus (mark it Br. Rigdon) What did Jesus say--as the father
hath power in himself even so hath the son power to do what
we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God
himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus
Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I
had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a
manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say?
(mark it elder Rigdon;) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself,
even so hath the Son power; to do what?
|to do what the father did. Lay down his body. & take it up again-
The Father Died And Was Resurrected
the Far. did that ansr. is obvious in a manner to lay down his body
& take it up--J--did as my Far. laid down his body & take it up agn. if
you don't believe it you don't believe the Bile the Scrip says & I defy
all hell all learng. wisdom & records of hell togr to refute it here
then is Etl. life to know the only wise and true God
the father did even to lay down my body & take it up again do you believe
it, if not, dont believe the bible. I defy all Hell and earth to refute it.
why what the father did, to lay down his body and took it up again. Jesus
what are you going to do--to lay down my life as my father did that I might
take it up again. If you deny it you deny the bible. I defy the
[learning?] and wisdom & all the combined powers of earth and hell to refute
we choose tabernacles for ourselves that we might be exalted equal with God
himself and therefore, Jesus Christ spoke in this manner; I do as my Father
before me did. Well what did the Father do? Why he went and took a body and
went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to lay down his life and to
take it up again and this is the way we become heirs with God and joint heirs
with Jesus Christ.
why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his
body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my
life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it,
you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the
learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together,
to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God.
| - you have got to learn how to make yourselves God, Kings, Priests, &c. - by
going from a small to great capacity. Till they are able to dwell in
everlasting burning & everlasting power. -
To know God learn to become God's. Exalted by the addition of subjects to his family, or kingdom.
Must Become as God
you have got to learn how to be a God yourself & be a K. &
to God same as all have done by going from a small capy to anr.
from grace to grace until the resn. of & sit in everlasting power
as they who have gone before & God in the L. D. while
certn. individs are proclaimg. his name is not trifling with us--
And you have got to learn how to make yourselves God, king and
priest, by going from a small capacity to a great capacity to the
resurrection of the dead to dwelling in everlasting burnings, I want
you to know the first principle of this law,
You have got to learn how to be a god yourself in order to save yourself--
to be priests & kings as all Gods has done--by going from a small degree
to another--from exaltation to ex--till they are able to sit in glory as with
those who sit enthroned. I want you to know while God is being
proclaimed that he is not trifling with you nor me.
You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and
priests to God the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small
degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation,
until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in
everlasting power; and I want you to know that God in the last days,
while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling
with you or me;
how consoling when called to part with a dear friend. to know their
very being will rise to dwell in everlasting burning.--heirs of God.
and ascend a throne as those who have gone before. =
Consoling-To Know They are Heirs
how consoling to the mourner when they are cald. to part with a wife,
mother, father, dr. relative to know that all Earthly taber shall be
dissolved that they shall be heirs of God & jt. hrs of J. C. to
inherit the same power exaltn. until you ascd. the throne of Etl.
power same as those who are gone bef. what J. did I do the things I
saw my Far. do
how consoling to the mourner when they part with a friend to
know that though they lay down this dody [sic]. it will rise & dwell
with everlasting burnings to be an heir of God & joint heir with
Jesus Christ enjoying the same rise, exhaltation & glory until
you arrive at the station of a God. What did Jesus Christ do?
The same thing as I se the Father do,
1st principles of consolation how consoling to the mourner
when called to part with husband father wife child to
know that those being shall rise in immortal glory to
sorrow die nor suffering more. & not only that to contemplate--
the saying they shall be heirs of God &c.--what is it--to
inherit the same glory power & exaltation with those who
are gone before. What did Jesus do. Why I do the things
that I saw the father do when worlds came into existence.
For we are to go from glory to glory and as one is raised to a
higher, so the next under him may take his degree and so to take
the exaltation through the regular channel. When we get to where
Jesus is, he will be just as far ahead of us again in exaltation.
it is the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the
mourner, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father,
mother, child or dear relative, to know, that although the earthly
tabernacle shall be dissolved, that they shall rise in immortal glory,
not to sorrow, suffer or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God
and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? to inherit the same
glory, the same power and the same exaltation, until you ascend the
throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. What
did Jesus do? why I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came
rolling into existence.
I saw the father work out his kingdom with fear & trembling.--god is
glorified in^ salvation Exaltation--of his ancestors &c.--
Jesus Saw The Father's Probation
before worlds came rollg. into existence I saw my Far. work out his
K with fear & trembling & I must do the same when I shall give my
K to the Far. so that he obtns K rollg. upon K. so
that J[esus] treads in his tracks as he had gone before.
see the father do what, work out a kingdom, when I do so to I will
give to the father which will add to his glory, he will take a Higher
exhaltation & I will take his place and am also exhalted.
I saw the father work out a kingdom with fear & trembling &
I can do the same & when I get my k[ingdom] work I will
present to the father & it will exalt his glory and Jesus
steps into his tracks to inherit what God did before.
I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling,
and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present
it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it
will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit
what God did before;
not all to be comprehended in this world. =
First Principle And The Last Principle
It is plain beyond comprehensn. & you thus learn the first prin
of the Gospel when you climb a ladder you must begin at the bottom run[g]
until you learn the last prin of the gospel for it is a great thing
to learn Saln. beyond the grave & it is not all to be com
in this world. I sup I am not alld. to go into investign. but
what is contd. in the Bible & I think is so many wise men who wod.
put me to death for treason I shall turn commentator today.
Those are the first principles of the gospel. It will take a long
time after the grave to understand the whole If I should say
anything but what was in the bible the cry of treason would be herd
This is some of the first principles of the gospel about
which so much hath been.--You have got to find the beginning
of this history & go on till you have learned the last--will
be a great while before you learn the last. lt is not all to
be comprehended in this world. I suppose that I am not allowed
to go into an investigation of anything that is not in the
Bible--you would cry treason. So many learned and wise men here--
it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first
principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When
you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you
learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have
learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world;
it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose
I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not
contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here,
who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day;
the head, or the head one = The head one of the Gods, brought forth the
Gods.--Dr & Lawyers that have persecuted.--The head one called the Gods
together in grand council--to bring forth the world. = Example of error
as yocab-Jacob--the son of Zebedee--& James. James the son of Zebedee
4 Mat. 21. Greek, Hebrew, German, & Latin. - In the beginning the
head of the gods called a council of the Gods--and concocted a scheme
to create the world. --
Soon as we begin to understand the character of Gods he begins to
unfold the heavens to us.
Hebrew - Book of Abraham
I shall go to the first Hebrew word in the Bible the 1st
sen: In the beginning--Berosheat--In, by, thro. &
everything else. Roshed the head when the Inspd. man wrote
it he did not put the 1st pt. to it. a man, a Jew witht.
any authy. thot. it too bad to begin to talk about the
head of any man. "The Head one of the Gods brought forth the
Gods" is the true meang. of the word--if you do not believe
it you do not believe the learned man of God--no man can tell
you more than I do thus the H[ead?] God brot. forth the Gods
in the Head council--I want to bring it to English. Oh ye lawyers
ye doctors I want to let you know that the H G. knows
something as well as you do--the Head God called togr. the
Gods & set in Grand Council &c when I say a lawyer I mean a
lawyer of the Scrip. I have done so hither to let the
lawyers flutter & let everybody laugh at them. some learned
Dr. mit. take a notn. to say thus & so--& are not to be
altd. & I am going to shew you an error I have an old book
in the Latin Greek Hebrew & German &
German Bible Most Correct
I have been readg. the Germ[an]: I find it to be the most
correct that I have found & it corresponds the nearest to
the revns. that I have given the last 16 yrs it
tells about Jachabod means Jacob--in the
English James--& you may talk about James thro all Eternity
in the 21 v. of 4.th Mat: where it gives the test. that
it is to Jacob & how can we escape the dn. of hell witht.
God reveal to us. Latin says that Jackobus means Jacob-- Hebrew says
means Jacob--Greek says
Jacksus Jacob German says Jacob thank God I have
got this book & I thank him more for the gift of the H G. I have
all the 4 Test. come here ye learned men & read if you can. I shod.
not have brot. up this word unt only to shew that I am right when we
beg to learn this way we beg to learn the only true God & when we be[g]in
to know how to come to him--he begins to unfold the heavens to us &
tell us all abt. it bef our prayers get to his ears at the be now
I ask all the learned men who hear me wher. the learned men who are
preaching Saln. say that
I will then go to the Bible, Barasheet in the beginning, Analize the
word in and through the head, an old Jew added the word Bath, it red
the head one of the Gods, broat [brought] forth the Gods, I will transpose it
in the english language. I want you to know & learn that the Holy Ghost
knows something. The grand Council set at the head and contemplated the
creation of the world. Some will say, the scriptures say so & so, but I
will show you a text out of an old book containing the four languages,
Order of Prayer
the German is here what does this text say, yoakabeam, the son of Zebedee,
the bible says James the son of Zebedee, but this says Jacob son of Zebedee 21
ch 4th ver Matthew The Dr says (I mean Dr of Law not of physic) If
you say anything not according to the Bible we will cry treason, But if ye
are not led by revelation how can ye escape the damnation of Hell, here we
have the testimony of four I have the oldest Book in the world & the Holy
Ghost I thank God for the old Book but more for the Holy Ghost. The Gods
came together & concocked the plan of making the world & the inhabitants,
having a knowledge of God we know how to Approach him & ask & he will answer
An other thing the learned Dr says
will go the old Bible the very Berosheit.2
make a comment on the first sentence of the history of creation.
Berosheit want to annalize the word--Be--in by through & everything
else--rosh[indecipherable]--the head. sheit--where do it come from--
when they inspired man wrote he did not put the Be there--But a jew
put it there. It read in the first--the head one of the Gods brought
forth the Gods--is the true meaning--rosheet signifies to bring forth
the Eloheim. Learned men cannt learn anymore than what I have told you
hence the head God brought forth the head God in the grand council.
Will simplify it in the English language. The learned Doctors who
have persecuted me I want to let you know that the H. G.--
The grand councilors set in yonder heavens and contemplated the
creation of the worlds that was created at that time. When I say
Doctor & Lawyer I mean the D & L of the scriptures. Some
learned doctor might say the scriptures say thus & so and we must
believe the scriptures He referred to an old book (N. T.)
in the Hebrew, Latin, German & Greek--
find it to be the most correct--find it to correspond with the
revelations I have received. It talks about Yachaubon the son
of Zebedee--means Jacob. The N.T. says James--now if
Jacob had the keys you might talk about James and never get
the keys. Matthew 4-21 verse it gives the word Jacob instead
of James How can we escape the damnation of hell unless God be
with us--Men bind us with chains--Read from the Hebrew Yingacoub--
Jacob. Greek Ichobon--Jacob.
German He has got the oldest book in
the world--but he has got the oldest book in his heart. Latin
Yacobus--Jacob too--Should not have introduced this testimony
were it not to back up the word rosh--the head father of the
Gods. When we begin in this way we begin to find out God-- what
kind a being we have got to worship. When we begin to know how to
come to him he begins to come to us. When we are ready to come to
him he is ready to receive us. Learned Doctors tell us
I shall comment on the very first Hebrew word in the Bible; I will
make a comment on the very first sentence of the history of creation
in the Bible, Berosheit [bray-sheeth]. I want to analyze the word; Baith, in, by
through, in, and every thing else. Rosh, the head. Sheit, grammatical
termination. When the inspired man wrote it, he did not put the baith
there. A man a Jew without any authority, thought it too bad to begin to
talk about the head. It read first, 'The head one of the Gods brought forth
the Gods,' that is the true meaning of the words. Baurau[baw-raw], signifies to bring
forth. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the learned man of God.
No man can learn you more than what I have told you. Thus the head God brought
forth the Gods in the grand council. I will simplify it in the English language.
Oh ye lawyers! ye doctors! who have persecuted me; I want to let you know that the
Holy Ghost knows something as well as you do. The head God called together the Gods,
and set in grand council. The grand counsellors sat in yonder heavens, and contemplated
the creation of the worlds that were created at that time. When I say doctors and lawyers,
I mean the doctors and lawyers of the scripture. I have done so hitherto, to let the
lawyers flutter, and every body laugh at them. some learned doctor might take a
notion to say, the scriptures say thus and so, and are not to be altered, and I
am going to show you an error. I have an old book of the New Testament in the
Hebrew, Latin, German and Greek. I have been reading the German and find it to
be the most correct, and it corresponds nearest to the revelations I have given
for the last fourteen years. It tells about Jachoboy the son of Zebedee; it
means Jacob; in the English New Testament it is James.---- Now if Jacob had
the keys, you might talk about James through all eternity, and never get the
keys. In the 21st verse of the 4th chapter of Matthew, it gives the word
Jacob instead of James. How can we escape the damnation of hell except God
reveal to us; men bind us with chains; Latin says Jachobod means Jacob;---
Hebrew says it means Jacob; Greek says Jacob; German says Jacob. I thank
God I have got this book, and thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
I have got the oldest book in the world, but I have got the oldest book in my
heart. I have all the four testaments, come here ye learned men, and read if
you can. I should not have introduced this testimony were it not to back up
the word Rosh, the head, Father of the Gods. I should not have brought it up,
only to show that I am right. When we begin to learn in this way, we begin to
learn the only true God, and what kind of a being we have got to worship. When
we know how to come to him, he begins to unfold the heavens to us and tell us
all about it. When we are ready to come to him, he is ready to come to us.
Now I ask all the learned men who hear me, why the learned men who are
preaching salvation say, that
-- Doctors say.--created the earth out of nothing. Borau. --creates.-- it means to organized.--
Create (Burrau, in Hebrew,) which means organize
Exnihilo Creation Not Correct - Elements Eternal
God created the Heavens & the Earth out of nothing & the reason
is that they are unlearned & I know more than all the world put
togr. & If the H. G. in me com: more than all the
world I will associate with it--What does Boro mean it means to
organize same as you wod. organize a Ship.--
the Lord made the world out of nothing, you tell them that
God made the world out of something, & they think you are a
fool. But I am learned & know more than the whole world, the
Holy Ghost does anyhow, & I will associate myself with it.
Beaureau, to organize the world out of chaotic matter, element
God created the heavens & earth out of nothing. They account it
blasphemy to contradict the idea--They will call you a fool--
You ask them why they say don't the Bible say he created the
world & they infer that it must be out of nothing. The word
create came from the word Barau--don't mean so--it means to
organize--same as man would use to build a ship--hence we
But says the English translation, in the beginning God created all
things out of nothing, but there was never anything yet that was made
of nothing. Shame to such logic. The word in the Hebrew is thus;
when the Gods counseled together they rolled this earth in existence.
God created the heavens and the earth out of nothing, and the
reason is they are unlearned; they account it blasphemy to contradict
the idea, they will call you a fool.--- I know more than all the world
put together and the Holy Ghost within me comprehends more than all the
world, and I will associate with it. The word create came from the word
baurau; it does not mean so; it means to organize; the same as a man would
organize a ship. Hence we infer that
God had materials to organize the world. Elements--nothing can destroy.
no beginning no end.--
from Element Chaos, or Element,
Glory and Element Co-Eternal
God himself had materials to org. the world out of chaos
which is Element & in which dwells all the glory--that nothing can
destroy they never can have an ending they coexist eternally--I
have anor. to dwell on & it is impossible for me to say much
but to touch upon them--for time will not permit me to say all--
they are principles that cannot be dissolved they may be reorganized.
God had materials to organize from--chaos--chaotic matter.
--element had an existence from the time he had. The pure pure
principles of element are principles that never can be
destroyed--they may be organized and re organized=but not destroyed.
the great Elohim in the Hebrew meaning the God of all Gods, called a
Grand Council and counseled to form that planet on which we do now
dwell. They spoke and earth from chaos sprang by their workmanship.
Chaos being made into element. They saw till time should be no more . . .
God had materials to organize the world out of chaos; chaotic matter,
which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an
existence from the time he had. The pure principles of element, are
principles that can never be destroyed. They may be organized and
re-organized; but not destroyed.
I have another subject to dwell upon and it is impossible for me
to say much, but I shall just touch upon them; for time will not
permit me to say all;
The soul. Doctors of Divinity. God created in the beginning-- he
never the character of man. don't believe it.--who told you God
was self existent? correct enough.--in hebrew put into him his
spirit.--which was created before.
Mind of man coequal with God himself. friends separated for a
small moment from their spirits. coequal with God. and hold
converse when they are one with another--
If man had a beginning
he must have an end.--
Mind of Man of Immortal As God - No Beginning - No End
so I must come to the resurrection of the dead--the soul the in[ne]r
Spirit--of God man says created in the beging. the very idea lessens
man in my idea--I don't bel. the doct: hear it all ye Ends of the
World for God has told me so I am going to tell of things more noble--we
say that God himself is a selfexisting God, who told you so, how did it get
it into your head who told you that man did not exist in like manner-- how
does it read in the Heb. that God made man & put into it Adams Spirit &
so became a living Spirit--the mind of man--the
|min mind of man is as immortal
as God himself--hence while I talk to these mourners--they are only
separated from their bodies for a short period--their Spirits coexisted
with God & now converse one another same as we do--does not this give your
satisfactn. I want to reason more on the Spirit of Man for I am dwelling
on the body of man on the subjt. of the dead-- the SP of man
Another subject which is calculated to exhalt man I wish to speak of:
The resurrection of the dead. The soul the mind of man, where did
it come from? The learned says God made it in the beginning, but it
is not so, I know better God has told me so. If you dont believe
it, it wont make the truth without effect, God was a self exhisting
being, man exists upon the same principle. God made a tabernacle &
put a spirit in it and it became a Human soul, man exhisted in spirit &
mind coequal with God himself, you who mourn the loss of friends are
ownly seperated for a moment, the spirit is separated for a little
time, they are now conversant with each other as we are on the earth.
I am dwelling on the immutability of the spirit of man, is it logic
to say the spirit of man had a beginning & yet had no end? It does
not have a beginning or end,
It is associated with the subjects in question the resurrection of
the dead. Another subject--the soul--the mind of man--they say God
created it in the beginning. The idea lessens man in my estimation.
Don't believe the doctrine--know better--God told me so--Make a man
appear a fool before he gets through if he dont believe it. We say
that God was self--existent who told you so? It's correct enough but
how did it get into your heads--who told you that man did not exist
upon the same principle (refer to the bible) Don't say so in the old
Hebrew--God made man out of the earth and put into him his spirit and
then it became a living body The mind of man--the intelligent part is
coequal with God himself. I know that my testimony is true. hence when
I talk to these mourners what have they lost--They are only separated
from their bodies for a short season but their spirits existed coequal
with God and they now exist in a place where they converse together as
much as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal
and yet have a beginning because if a spirit have a beginning it will
have an end--good logic--
so I must come to the resurrection of the dead, the soul, the mind
of man, the immortal spirit. All men say God created it in the
beginning. The very idea lessens man in my estimation; I do not
believe the doctrine, I know better. Hear it all ye ends of the
world, for God has told me so. I will make a man appear a fool
before I get through, if you dont believe it. I am going to tell
of things more noble--we say that God himself is a self existing
God; who told you so? it is correct enough, but how did it get into
your heads? Who told you that man did not exist in like manner upon
the same principles? (refers to the old Bible,) how does it read in
the Hebrew? It dont say so in the Hebrew, it says God made man out of
the earth, and put into him Adam's spirit, and so became a living body.
The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony
is true, hence when I talk to these mourners; what have they lost, they
are only separated from their bodies for a short season; their spirits
existed co-equal with God, and they now exist in a place where they
converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say
that a spirit is immortal, and yet have a beginning? Because if a
spirit have a beginning it will have an end; good logic. I want to
reason more on the spirit of man, for I am dwelling on the body of
man, on the subject of the dead.
I take ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the
imt. Sp. bec. it has no beging. Suppose you cut it into but
as the D[evil] lives there wod. be an end all the fools & wise men from
the beging. of creation who say that man had begin--they must have an
end & then the doctrine of annihilitn. wod. be true--but if I am right
I mit. with boldness proclaim from the housetop
my ring is like the Exhistenc of man it has no beginning or end,
if cut into there would be a begining & end, so with man if it
had a begining, it will have an end,
illustrated by his ring. All the fools learned & wise men that
comes and tells that man has a beginning proves that he must
have an end and if that doctrine is true then the doctrine of
annihilation is true. But if I am right then I might be bold to say that
I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man,
the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut
it in two; but as the Lord lives there would be an end.--- All the
fools learned and wise men, from the beginning of creation, who say
that man had beginning, proves that he must have an end and then the
doctrine of annihilation would be true. But, if I am right I might
with boldness proclaim from the house tops,
God never had power to create the spirit of man
upon a self existent principle no creation about it. all mind & spirit
God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.--
God Cannot Create A Mind
that God never had power to create the Sp of Man at all--
it is ne God
himself cod. not create himself-- intelligence is self existent it is
a sp. from age to end & there is no creatn abt. it
the first principles of man are self exist with God--
if I am right, I might say God never had power to create the spirit of man,
God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is Eternal & it is self
exhisting. All mind
|that is susceptible of improvement,
God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all.
He could not create himself--Intelligence exists upon a
selfexistent principle--is a spirit from age to age &
no creation about it--All the spirits that God ever sent
into this world are susceptible of enlargement.
How came spirits? Why they are and were self existing as all eternity
and our spirits are as eternal as the very God is himself
that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God
himself could not create himself: intelligence exists upon a self existent
principle, it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about
it. All the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of
The Beginning of Man's Relationship With God
that God himself finds himself in the midst of Sp & bec he saw proper to
institute laws for those who were in less intelligence that they mit. have
one glory upon another in all that knowledge power & glory & so took in hand
to save the world of Sp:
Holy Ghost The Source
you say honey is Sweet & so do I. I can also taste the Sp of Eternal
life I know it is good & when I tell you of these things that were given me
by Insp of the H S. you are bound to rece it as sweet &
I rej more & more. Man's rel. to God & I will open your eyes
in rel to your dead all things which God of his inf reason has
seen fit to reveal to us in our mortal state
the relationship we have with God places us in a situation to
advance in knowledge. God has power to institute laws to instruct
the weaker intelligences that they may be exhalted with himself
This is good
d doctrin, it tastes good. I can taste the
principles of eternal life, so can you, they are given to me by
the revelations of Jesus Christ and I know you believe it.
That God himself--find himself in the midst of spirit and glory
because he was greater saw proper to institute laws whereby the
rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. I know that
when I tell you those words of eternal life that are given to me
I know you taste it and I know you believe it. Wants to talk
more of the relation of man to God--in relation to your dead.
All things whatsoever God has seen proper to reveal to us while
we are dwelling in mortality
The first principles of man are self existent with God; that God
himself finds himself in the midst of spirits and glory, because he
was greater, and because he saw proper to institute laws, whereby the
rest could have a privilege to advance like himself, that they might
have one glory upon another, in all that knowledge, power, and glory,
&c., in order to save the world of spirits. I know that when I tell
you these words of eternal life, that are given to me, I know you taste
it and I know you believe it. You say honey is sweet and so do I. I
can also taste the spirit of eternal life; I know it is good, and when
I tell you of these things, that were given me by inspiration of the
Holy Spirit, you are bound to receive it as sweet, and I rejoice more
I want to talk more of the relation of man to God. I will open your
eyes in relation to your dead; all things whatsoever God of his infinite
wisdom has seen proper to reveal to us, while we are dwelling in mortality,
all things God has seen fit proper to reveal while dwelling in mortality,
are revealed. precisely the same as though we were destitute of bodies.--
what will save
our spirits will save our bodies--our tabernacles--for our spirits--All
spirits who have not obeyed the Gospel must be damned. = Who have not obeyed
the decrees of son of man.
We are looked upon by God as though we were in Eternity =
All things revealed to us as though we had no bodies. for the exaltation of our Spirits,
God Regards Us In Eternal Perspective-Hence Work For Dead Is Necessary
in regard to our mortal bodies are revd. to us as if we had no
bodies & those revns. which will save our dead will save our
bodies. & God reveals them to us in the view of no eternal dissn.
of the body--hence the awful responsibility that rests upon us for our
dead--for all the Spirits must either obey the gospel or be d--d solemn
thot., dreadful thot. is there nothing to be done for those who have
gone before us without obeyg the decrees of God Wod. to God that I had
40 days & nights--to tell you all to let you know I am not a faln prophet--
what kind of characters are those who can be saved although their bodies are
decaying in the grave--
All things that God sees fit to reveal to us in relation to us,
reveals his commandments to our spirits. And in saving our spirits,
we save the body, the same as though we had no Body how comes the
awful responsibility if in relation to our dead, if they do not be
baptized they must be damned (I wish I had 40 days to talk). What
promises are made, what can be said if in the grave, God dwells in
eternity, and he does not view things as we do,
are revealed to us in the abstract & independent of affinity of
this mortal tabernacle--but they are revealed as though we had no
bodies at all--tho revealed to our spirits and those revelations
must of necessity--save our spirits with them. Hence the responsibility,
the awful res. that rests upon us in relation to our dead--
for all spirits who have not obeyed the gospel in the flesh must obey
the gospel or be damned. Is there no preparation--no salvation for our
fathers & friends who have died and not obeyed the decrees of the son
of man--Would to God I had 40 days & nights I would let you know that
I am not a fallen prophet--What kind of beings can be saved although
their bodies are moldering in the dust. When his commandments teach
us it is in view of eternity.
in regard to our mortal bodies, are revealed to us in the abstract and
independent of affinity of this mortal tabernacle; but are revealed to
us as if we had no bodies at all, and those revelations which will save
our dead will save our bodies; and God reveals them to us in view of no
eternal dissolution of the body; hence the responsibility, the awful
responsibility, that rests upon us in relation to our dead: for all the
spirits who have not obeyed the gospel in the flesh, must either obey the
gospel or be damned. Solemn thought, dreadful thought. Is there nothing
to be done: no salvation for our fathers and friends who have died and not
obeyed the decrees of the Son of Man? Would to God that I had forty days
and nights to tell you all, I would let you know that I am not a fallen
prophet. What kind of characters are those who can be saved although
their bodies are decaying in the grave? When his commandments teach
us, it is in view of eternity.
the greatest responsibility resting upon us is to look after our dead.--
they without us cannot be made perfect without us. Meet Paul 1/2 way.--
Our Greatest Responsibility - Seek After Our Dead
the greatest responsibility that God has laid upon us to seek after
our dead--the apostle says they without us cant be Perfect--now I am
speaking of them I say to you Paul, you can't be perfect witht. us.--those
that are gone before & those who come after must be made perfect--& God has
made it obligatory to man--
the greatest responsibility lade upon us in this life, is in relation
to our dead Paul said we cannot be made perfect without us [them],
The greatest responsibility in this world is to seek after our
dead. They without us cannot be made perfect--It is necessary
that those who come after us should have salvation in common
with us--& thus hath God laid this upon the [indecipherable]
of the world
The greatest responsibility in this world that God has laid upon us, is to
seek after our dead.--- I say to you Paul, you cannot be perfect without us:
it is necessary that those who are gone before, and those who come after us
should have salvation in common with us, and thus hath God made it obligatory to man.
Hence the saying of Elijah.--God made provisions before the world was for
every creature in
All sin shall be forgiven in this world or world to come--
Salvation for all men who have not committed a certain sin can
save any man who has not committed the unpardonable sin. cannot commit the
unpardonable sin after the
diss dissolution of the body. Knowledge
save a man.--
No way for a man to come to understanding but give his
consent to the commandment
hence our bodies being connected, cannot commit the unpardonable sin
after the dissolution of the body.
Elijah vs. the Unpardonable Sin
God said he shall send Elijah &c I have a declarn to
make as to the provn. which God made from before the foundn.
of the world. what has J[esus]. sd. All sins & all blas.
every trans. that man may be guilty of there is a Saln.
for him or in the world to come--every Sp[irit] in the Et. world
can be ferreted out & saved unless he has commd. that Sin which
cant be remd to him--that God has wrot. out saln. for all
men unless they have commd. a certn. sin. a friend who has got a
friend in the world can save him unless he has commd. the
unpard sin & so you can see how far you can be Savior there
is no thing that a man can commit the unpardonable sin after the
dissn of the body & there is a way possible for escape. not
Part[icul]arly st[ate]d those that are witht. wisdom until they get
exalted to wisdom
so long as man will not give acct. of his sins
for it is necessary that the seals are in our hands to seal
our children & our dead for the fullness of the dispensation
of times, A dispensation to meet the promises made by Jesus
Christ befor the foundation of the world for the salvation of
man. All sins and blasphemy, were to be forgiven except the sin
against the Holy Ghost. God has made provision for evry spirit
in the eternal world, and the spirits of our friends should be
searched out & saved, Any man that has a friend in eternity can
save him if he has not committed the unpardonable sin, He cannot
be damned through all eternity, there is a possibility for his
escape in a little time, If a man has knowledge he can be saved.
If he has been guilty of great sins, he is punished for it, when
he consents to obey the gospel whether Alive or dead, he is saved,
hence the saying of Elijah. Speak in relation to the provisions God
hath made to suit the conditions of man. What hath Jesus said?--All
sins & all blasphemies every transgression except one there is a
provision either in this world or in the world of spirit. Hence
God hath made a provision that every spirit can be ferreted out
in that world that has not sinned the unpardonable sin neither
in this world or in the world of spirits. Every man who has a
friend in the eternal world who hath not committed the unpardonable
sin you can save him. A man cannot commit the unpardonable sin after
the dissolution of the body there is a way for his escape. Knowledge
saves a man and in the world of spirits a man can't be exalted but by
knowledge. So long as a man will not give heed to the commandments
he must abide without salvation.
Hence God said he should send Elijah, &c. ; I have a declaration to
make as to the provisions which God hath made to suit the conditions
of man; made from before the foundation of the world, What has Jesus
said? All sins and all blasphemies, every transgression, except one,
that man can be guilty of, there is a salvation for him either in this
world, or the world to come. Hence God hath made a provision, that every
spirit in the eternal world can be ferreted out and saved, unless he has
committed that unpardonable sin, which can not be remitted to him. That
God has wrought out a salvation for all men, unless they have committed a
certain sin. Every man who has got a friend in the eternal world can save
him unless he has committed the unpardonable sin, so you can see how
far you can be a savior. A man can not commit the unpardonable sin after
the dissolution of the body, and there is a way possible for escape.
Knowledge saves a man, and in the world of spirits a man cannot be exalted
but by knowledge; so long as a man will not give heed to the commandments,
he must abide without salvation.
Damned by mortification--a lake as of fire of brimstone--as exquisite the
disappointment of the mind of man - - - - - -
Why? Must commit the unpardonable sin
in this world. will suffer in the eternal world until he will be exalted.--
work of the devil. the plans the devil laid to save the world.--
he could save them all--Lot fell on Jesus.--All sin &c forgiven except the
sin against the Holy Ghost.--Got to deny the plan of salvation &c. with his
eyes open. Like many of the apostates of christ of the Church of Jesus
Christ of last Days.
Men Will Condemn Themselves - Sin Against The Holy Ghost
a sinner has his own mind & is in his own condemner
|for the G will
the torment of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burng.
with fire & brimstone--I know the Scriptures I understand them--
no man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissn. of
the body but they must do it in this World--hence the Saln.
of J. C[hrist] was wrought out for all men to triumph over the
devil--for he stood up for a Savior--J. contd. that there
wod. be certn. souls that wod. be condemned & the dl sd.
he cod. save them all--as the grand council gave in for J.
C. so the de l fell & all who put up their heads for him
all sin shall be forgiven except the sin agn. the H. G.
he has got to say that the Sun does not shine while he sees it
he has got to deny J. C. when the heavens are open to him.
& from that time they begin to be enemies like many of the apostates
of the Church of J. C. of L.D.S.--when a man begins
to be an enemy he hunts him--for he has the same Sp. that they had
who crucd. the Lord of life--the same Sp. that Sin agn.
the H. G.
his own mind damns him I have no fear of hell fire that dont
exhist No man can commit the unpardonable sin, untill he receives
the Holy Ghost, All will suffer untill they obey Christ himself,
even the devil said I am a savior and can save all, he rose up
in rebelion against God and was cast down,. Jesus Christ will save
all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the
unpardonable sin they must receive the Holy Ghost have the heavens
opened unto them, & know God, & then sin against him, this is the
case with many apostates in this Church, they never seease to try
to hurt me, they have got the same spirit the devil had, you cannot
save them, they make open war like the devil,
A man is his own torment. Hence the saying they shall go into
the lake that burns with fire & is as exquisite as a lake &
so is the torments of a man--I said no man could commit the
unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body--Hence the
salvation that the saviour wrought out for the salvation of a
man if it did not[indecipherable] him in one place it would
another--The contention in heaven was Jesus said there were
certain man would not be saved the devil said he could save
them. he rebelled against God and was thrust down. After a
man has sinned the sin against the H.S. there is no
repentance for him. Hence like many of the apostates of the
C of J. C. L.D.S. They go to far
the spirit leaves them hence they seek to kill me they thirst
for my blood--they neve cease--he has got the same spirit
that crucified Jesus. You can't renew them to repentance--
awful is the consequence.
But those who die without the obedience of the gospel here will have to
obey it in the world of spirits for so long as they do not obey they will
be miserable and as if they were in torment of fire and brimstone. Thus
is the signification of torment . . . But Satan, or Lucifer, being the next
heir and had allotted to him great power and authority even prince of power
of the air. He spake immediately and boasted of himself saying send me I
can save all and [he] sinned against the Holy Ghost because he accused his
brethren and was hurled from the counsel for
striving to break the law immediately. There was a warfare with Satan and
the gods and they hurled Satan out of his place and all them that would not
keep the sayings of the council. But he himself being one of the councilors
would not keep the first estate for he was one of the sons of perdition and
consequently all the sons of perdition become devils.
A man is his own tormenter, and is his own condemner: hence the saying
they shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment
of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone--
so is the torment of man. I know the scriptures; I understand them. I said no
man can commit the unpardonable sin after the dissolution of the body, but they
must do it in this world: hence the salvation of Jesus Christ was wrought out
for all men in order to triumph over the devil: for if it did not catch him
in one place, it would in another, for he stood up as a Savior.
The contention in heaven was, Jesus said there would be certain souls that
would not be saved, and the devil said he could save them all; the grand
council gave in for Jesus Christ: so the devil rebelled against God and fell,
and all who put up their heads for him. All sins shall be forgiven except the
sin against the Holy Ghost: after a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost there
is no repentance for him, he has got to say that the sun does not shine, while
he sees it, he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the Heavens were open to him,
and from that time they begin to be enemies, like many of the apostates of the
church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. When a man begins to be an enemy,
the hunts me. They seek to kill me; they thirst for my blood; they never
cease. He has the same spirit that they had who crucified the Lord of Life:
the same spirit that sins against the Holy Ghost. You cannot bring them to
repentance. Awful is the consequence.
Let All be careful.--lest you be deceived. Best man brings forth best works.
To the mourners, your friend has gone to wait the perfection of the reunion--
the resurrection of your friend in felicity. While worlds must wait myriads
of years before they can receive the like blessings.--Leave the subject.
Advises All To Beware
I advise all to be careful what you do--stay--do not give way--
you may find that some one has laid a snare for you be cautious--
await--when you find a Sp. wants bloodshed murder same is not of
God but is of the devil out of the abundance of the heart man speaks--
the man that tells you words of life is the man that can save you--I
warn you agt all evil characters^ who sin agt. the H. G. for
there is no redempn. for them in this world nor in the world to come
stay all that hear, dont make any hasty mooves you may be saved,
if a spirit of Bitterness is in you, don't be in haste, say you that
man is a sinner, well, if he repents, he shall be forgiven. I could
go back and trace evry subject of interest concerning the relationship
of man to God if i had time,
Advise all to be careful what they do-- you may by and by find out that
you have been deceived.
I advise all of you to be careful what you do, you may be and bye find
out that you have been deceived. Stay yourselves, do not give way. You
may find out that some one has laid a snare for you. Be cautious; await!
when you find a spirit that wants bloodshed, murder, the same is not of
God, but is of the devil. Out of the abundance of the heart man speaketh.
The man that tells you words of life, is the man that can save you. I warn
you against all evil characters, who sin against the Holy Ghost, for there
is no redemption for them in this world, or in the world to come.
Bless those who have lost friends. Only gone for a few moments.--
I can enter into the mysteries--I can enter largely into the eternal
worlds--for J. sd.
where my In my Fars. mansion there are many mansions &c
There is one glory of the moon sun & star &c we have the reason to have
the greatest hope & consoln. for our dead-- for we have aided them in
the .1st princ for we have seen them walk in the midst & sink asleep
in the arms of J. & hence is the glory of the Sun--you mourners have
occn. to rejoice for your husband has gone to wait until the redn.
& your expn. & hope are far above what man can conceive--for why God
has revd. to us--&
their is many mansions in my father's Kingdom, what have we to
console us in relation to our dead, we have the greatest hope
in relation to our dead of any people on earth we have seen
them walk worthy on earth and those who have died in the faith
are now in the selestial kingdom of God, they have gone to await
the resurrection of the dead, to go to the celestial glory, while
there is many who die who will have to wait many years,
||and as there are many mansions in my Father's house or in other
words many worlds in my Father's world, I will go and prepare a place
for you that where I am ye may also come.
I can enter into the mysteries; I can enter largely into the eternal
worlds: for Jesus said, in my father's house there are many mansions,
&c. There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and
another glory of the stars, &c. We have reason to have the greatest
hope and consolations for our dead, for we have aided them in the
first principles; for we have seen them walk in our midst, and seen
them sink asleep in the arms of Jesus. And hence is the glory of
the sun. You mourners have occasion to rejoice; (speaking of the
death of Elder King Follett,) for your husband is gone to wait until
the resurrection: and your expectations and hope are far above what
man can conceive: for why has God revealed it to us?
King Follett A "Just Spirit"
I am authd. to say by the authy. of the H G.
that you have no occasn. to fear for he is gone to the home
of the just--don't mourn don't weep--I know it by the test of
the H. G. that is within me--rejoice O Israel--your friends
shall triumph gloriously--while their murderers shall welter for
years.--I say for the benefit of strangers I have a Far.
Bror. Friends who are gone to a world of Sp--they are
absent for a momt.--they are in the Sp. then shall we hail
our Mor. Far. Friends & all no fear of mobs--&c but all
one Eternity of felicity--
But I am authorized to say to you my friends in the name of the Lord,
that you may wait for your friends to come forth to meet you in eternity
in the morn of the celestial world, those saints who have been murdered
in the persecution shall triumph in the celestial world, while their
murderers shall dwell in torment untill they pay the utmost farthing.
I have Fathers, Brothers, children, that are gone to eternity soon to
meet me, the time will soon be gone, the trump will soon be blown.
I am authorized to say by the authority of the Holy Ghost, that you
have no occasion to fear, for he is gone to the home of the just.
Don't mourn: don't weep. I know it by the testimony of the Holy Ghost
that is within me. Rejoice O Israel! your friends shall triumph
gloriously, while their murderers shall welter for ages. I say
this for the benefit of strangers. I have a father, brothers, and
friends who are gone to a world of spirits. They are only absent
for a moment; they are in the spirit, and when we depart we shall
hail our mothers fathers, friends, and all whom we love.--- There
will be no fear of mobs, &c., but all will be an eternity of felicity.
| ¶ Shall mothers have their Children? Yes. they shall have it without
price. Redemption is paid possessing all the intelligence of a god.
The child as it was before it died out of your arms thrones upon
thrones. Dominion upon dominion just as you
Children Restored to Mothers
Mothers you shall have your Children for they shall have it--for their
debt is paid there is no damn. awaits them for they are in the Spirits--
as the Child dies so shall it rise from the ded & be living in the burng.
of God.--it shall be the child as it was bef it died out of your arms
Children dwell & exercise power in the same form as they laid them down
A question, will Mothers have their children in Eternity
yes, yes, you will have the children But as it falls, so
it will rise, It will never grow, It will be in its precise
form as it fell in its mothers arms.
3 Eternity is full of thrones
upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of
glory not one cubit added to their stature
He continued his discourse--& told of parents receiving their children--
Mothers you shall have your children, for they shall have eternal
life; for their debt is paid, there is no damnation awaits them,
for they are in the spirit.--- As the child dies, so shall it rise
from the dead and be forever living in the learning of God, it shall
be the child, the same as it was before it died out of your arms.
Children dwell and exercise power in the same form as they laid them down.
Baptism of water fire & Holy Ghost are inseparably connected.--found
in the German Bible to prove what I have taught for 14 years about
baptism.--I baptize you with water. but when Jesus comes having the
keys--he shall baptize you with the baptism of fire & Holy Ghost.--
Leaving the principles of doctrine of baptism &c--one god, one baptism,
& one baptism--I.E. all three.
called upon all men, Priests, and all
to repent and obey the gospel.--if they do not, they will be damned.--
Baptism No Effect Without Gift of The Holy Ghost
¶ The Bap of Water witht. the B of Fire & the H G.
attg. it are necy he must be born of W. & Sp in order
to get into the K of God & in the German text bears me out same
as the revns. which I have given for the 14 years--I have the test
to put in their teeth that my test has been true all the time You will
find it in the declar of John the Bap (reads from the German)
John says I bap you with Water but when J comes who has the
power he shall adm the baptism of F & the H. G. Gt.
God now where is all the Sect. world. & if this is true they are
all d--d as clearly as any Anathema ever was--I know the text is true--
I call upon all to say I--(shouts of I) Alex Campbell--how are you going
to save them with water--for John sd. his bapm. was nothing witht.
the baptism of J. C. One God, Far., Jesus, hope of, our calling,
one baptism--all three bap make one. I have the truth & I am at the
defiance of the world to contradict.
I have preached Latin Hebrew
Greek German & I have fulfilled all I am not so big a fool as many have
taken me for--the Germans know that I read the German correct--Hear it
all ye Ends of the Earth--all ye Sinners Repent Repent--turn to God for
your reln. wont save you & ye will be d--d but I do not say how along--
I will leave this subject here and make a few remarks upon Baptism,
I will read a tex[t] in Jerman [German] upon Baptism, John says, I baptise you
with water But when Jesus Christ Comes He shall administer the baptism
of fire & the Holy Ghost, John said his baptism was good for nothing
without the Baptism of Jesus Christ, Many talk of any baptism not being
essential to salvation, but this would lay the foundation of their damnation,
--concluded his remarks by Baptism--Choir sang--
The baptism of water without the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost
attending it is of no use: they are necessary. He must be born of water
and the spirit in order to get into the kingdom of God.
In the German,
the text bears me out the same as the revelations which I have given for
the last fourteen years. I have the testimony to put in their teeth; my
testimony has been true all the time. You will find it in the declaration
of John the Baptist, (reads from the German), John says I baptize you with
water, but when Jesus comes, who has the power, he shall administer the
baptism of fire, and the Holy Ghost. Great God! where is now all the
sectarian world! and if this testimony is true, they are all damned as
clearly as anathema can do it. I know the text is true. I call upon
all you Germans, who know that it is true. to say aye, (loud shouts of
aye.) Alexander Campbell, how are you going to save them with water alone?
for John said his baptism was nothing without the baptism of Jesus Christ.
There is one God, one Father, one Jesus, one hope of our calling, one
baptism--- all these three baptisms only make one. I have the truth and
am at the defiance of the world to contradict me, if they can. I have now
preached a little Latin, and little Hebrew, Greek and German, and I have
fulfilled all.--- I am not so big a fool as many have taken me to be. The
Germans know that I read the German correct.
Hear it all ye ends of the earth-- all ye sinners, repent! turn to God, for
your religion wont save you, and you will be damned; I do not say how long;
those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnaolom. without end.--
God dwells in everlasting burnings.--Love all men but hate your deeds.--
Fate of Sons of Perdition
but those who Sin agt. the H. G. cannot be forgiven
in this world or in the world to come but they shall die the 2nd.
death--but as they concoct scenes of bloodshed in this world so
they shall rise to that resurn. which is as the lake of fire &
brimstone--some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God & some
shall rise to the dn. of their own filthiness--same as the lake
of fire & brimstone--I have intd. my remarks to all--to all rich &
poor bond & free great & small I have no enmity agst any man. I love
you all--I am their best friend & if persons miss their mark it is their
own fault--if I reprove a man & he hate me he is a fool--for I love all
men especially these my brethren & sisters--I rejoice in hearing the
test of my aged friend--You never knew my heart.
There has also been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from Hell,
But I say that any man who commits the unpardonable sin must dwell in hell
worlds without end.
Jesus Christ being the greater light or of more intelligence, for he loved
righteousness and hated iniquity, he being the Elder Brother presented
himself for to come and redeem this world as it was his right by inheritance.
He stated he could save all those who did not sin against the Holy Ghost and
they would obey the code of laws that were given. But their circumstances were
that all who would sin against the Holy Ghost should have no forgiveness neither
in this world or in the world to come, for they strove against light and knowledge
after they tasted of the good things of the world to come. They should not have
any forgiveness in the world to come because they had a knowledge of the things of
the world to come and were not willing to abide of the laws of the world to come.
Therefore they can have no forgiveness there, but must be most miserable of all
and never can be renewed again (referred to Hebrews Ch. 6).
but those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world, or in
the world to come; they shall die the second death; as they concoct scenes of
bloodshed in this world so they shall rise to that resurrection, which is as the
lake of fire and brimstone: some shall rise to the everlasting burning of God,
and some shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness---as exquisite as
the lake of fire and brimstone.
I have intended my remarks to all; both rich and poor, bond and free, great and
small. I have not enmity against any man. I love you all. I am your best
friend, and if persons miss their mark, it is their own fault. If I reprove
a man and he hates me, he is a fool, for I love all men, especially these my
brethren and sisters. I rejoice in bearing the testimony of my aged friends.
You never know my heart;
You don't know me--you never will I don't blame you for not believing my
history. Had I not experienced it, I could not believe it myself
5 1/2 closed.
No Man Knows Joseph's History - Too Incredible
No man knows my hist--I can not do it. I shall never
undertake--if I had not experienced what I have I should not
have known it myself--I never did harm any man since I have
been born in the world--my voice is always for peace--I cannot
lie down until my work is finished--I never think evil nor think
any thing to the harm of my fellow man--& when I am called at
the trump & weighed in the balance you will know me then--
I add no more God bless you. Amen--The choir sung an hymn at 1/2 p 5.
no man knows my history; I cannot tell it. I shall never undertake it; if
I had not experienced what I have, I should not have known it myself. I
never did harm any man since I have been born in the world. My voice is
always for peace, I cannot lie down until all my work is finished. I
never think any evil, nor any thing to the harm of my fellow man.---
When I am called at the trump of the ark-angel, and weighed in the
balance, you will all know me then. I add no more. God bless you all. Amen.
The choir sung a hymn at half past 5 o'clock and dismissed with a benediction.
0. King Follett. b. July 26, 1788, Winchester, Cheshire Co., New
Hampshire to Revolutionary War Captain John Follett and Hannah Alexander. Had roughly 20
siblings and half siblings. Follett received the name "King" as a tribute to parents
neighbors, King family who were related by marriage to the Folletts. Purchased land in
DeKalb, St. Lawrence Co., New York, 1811. M. Louisa Tanner (b. 1798) in 1816.
Nine children. Living in
Shalersville, Portage Co., Ohio by 1819 where they stayed more than a decade. Ran a distillery.
Baptized either in Shalersville or New York spring 1831. Served as bodyguard to Joseph
Smith in Kirtland. Was involved with battle of the Big Blue River in November 1833. Living
at Libert, Clay Co., Missouri 1834. Moved to Caldwell Co. 1836. Went to Kirtland Nov. 1835.
Probably at Kirtland Temple dedication. Received patriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith Sr.,
December 16, 1835. Ordained seventy by April 1836. High Councilor at Far West, Missiouri
April 1837. Part of Danite group. Help Edward Partridge and family escape Missouri.
Arrested by mob in Missouri. Broke jail July 4, 1839, captured and jailed until September
29, 1839 where he was aquitted of any crime. In Wilton Township, Illinois after March 1840.
Lived in Adams Co., Ill. by Nov. 1840. Commissioned captain Nauvoo Legion October 16, 1841.
Living in Nauvoo First Ward in 1842. Bodyguard for Joseph Smith again in 1843. Killed while
walling a well on his property in Nauvoo. Four funeral sermons, March 10 and April 7, May 12,
June 16, 1844 (the last were continuations of 7 April),
all were important discourses by Joseph Smith. [See Joann Follett Mortensen, "King Follett:
The man behind the discourse," Journal of Mormon History, 31 no. 2 (2005) 112-33; also
LDS Church Family History Library documents.]
1. Usually regarded as the most important of Joseph Smith's
sermons, "the King Follett Discourse" is given in six versions and a summary.
Joseph brings together nearly all his major doctrinal themes from the
past five years, several of which are related to, and perhaps originated with
the translation of the Book of Abraham.
While none of the themes are new, they are placed together for the first time:
- The eternal nature of man.
This is expanded upon from prior sermons (some examples are
in a number of ways, showing that Joseph intended
his audience to assume that persons are without beginning or end. Indeed,
he may have suggested the unique position that Jesus saw his Father perform in
mortality at the time it happened, hence he was able to observe what took
place long before being the "first born" in the spirit. [To be sure, the
more standard interpretation of these remarks suggests that Jesus saw the acts
of God in vision.] In any case, Joseph
reiterates (see the references above) his "no beginning,
no end" axiom to the bereaved of
Elder Follett. He employs this to say that they have nothing to fear in
regard to Elder Follett's death. Since he did not begin, he has not ended.
He is still a conscious being. Joseph Smith also discusses the
resurrection of the dead, another continuing doctrinal theme from past
years, offering assurances to those present of the resurrection
of their loved ones.
- The doctrine of heavenly councils. Another Book of Abraham doctrine.
For antecedents see the following examples among many:
- The plurality of Gods. Joseph also reiterates his doctrine that the
Godhead consists of three separate beings, but also that other "Gods"
exist. Unlike the first doctrine in this list, the plurality of
Gods was widely taught following his death. In part this is a book of Abraham
doctrine which even refers to members of the council as "Gods." The
doctrine was closely tied to the cluster of ideas connected to plural
marriage. For antecedants of this theme see the next item. The theme was
continued on 16June44.
- The doctrine that God has gone through a similar chain of
progression as man: God is the ultimate pattern for man. Jesus
is the explicit example showing what events God once passed through eons ago
on some other world and what man can hope for (deification -see below).
For some antecedents see
11Jun43. [See also Van Hale, "The doctrinal impact of the King Follett discourse,"
BYUS 18, No. 2, (1978), 1-16.]
- The doctrine of Eternal Judgement. Once again Joseph teaches of the
key position of the "Sons of Perdition" in Mormon belief. They formed the
crux of the argument in the "war in heaven" (a Book of Abraham topic).
They would be the (one and only) group who would refuse salvation.
The related doctrine of the fate of murderers is also once again taught.
Compare previous discources given on
10Mar44 among others.
The doctrine went through some development in later years. James E. Talmage wrote that the Satanic
plan was that "all would be safely conducted through the career of mortality, bereft of freedom
to act and agency to choose, so circuscribed that they would be compelled to do right - that not
one soul would be lost." [Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 35th ed. Deseret, 1963, 8-9.] One sees the
distinction between the two ideas: In Joseph's scenerio, only the "sons of perdition" would be
eliminated from possibility. For Joseph, in this context, salvation simply meant avoiding the outcome of
that group. The later incarnation suggests that somehow every person would perforce achieve the highest
reward. The two ideas are certainly not incompatible, but Joseph's teaching gives a focused context
for his revelations, especially D&C 76:30-39; also D&C 88:14-35 and D&C 132:19.
- Temple ordinances including the vicarious ordinance work for the
dead. The doctrine of deification of the Saints is reiterated and is
clearly tied to receiving certain ordinances in the temple.
Also related to the Book of Abraham, esp. facs. 2.
Compare earlier discources:
(see also his discourse the following day of
- The doctrine of the Kingdom of God (the place of John the
Baptist) and the nature of baptism. This was a hot topic among
religionists of the day and among many Church members. (Compare for
example his remarks at
The lack of availability of Joseph Smith's sermons and teachings, mostly
because of rather obscure sources together with limited circulation of
published material, helped lead to a certain distrust of this
sermon in the decades following Joseph's death (for one such problem many
years later see note 3 below). The antecedents of the doctrinal themes were
partly at least, unknown. Indeed, in the Church population, residents of
Nauvoo who frequented Joseph's speeches were an ever
smaller fraction. Even Church leaders who had been prominent at Nauvoo
were often not present at his remarks, nor did they have published
stenographic reports of his remarks delivered at places such as the
Shorthand was an invention that came too late for Joseph Smith - his
successors benefitted from stenographic reports of sermons.
Church publications where Joseph Smith's remarks
were (often all too briefly) published were rare. For instance, the book of
Abraham, published in the Times and Seasons in March 1842 had the
miniscule circulation of 500 copies. Evidence for a lack
of familiarity with some of Joseph's ideas is found in many Church
publications where contrary ideas are expressed or questions are posed
which Joseph answered. However, the lack of microscopic attention to Joseph
Smith's doctrinal statements is easily explained.
Joseph Smith's sucessors had life and death concerns elsewhere
with the exodus to the Salt Lake Valley and the survival issues there.
Those concerns would not really lessen until the arrival of the
transcontinental railroad in 1869. By then, the Federal Government was
beginning to wage a war of legal stricture with the Church. Further,
the influx of "gentiles"
to Utah had created yet more pressing concerns for Church leaders. It was
not until the opening of the twentieth century that the Church could turn
to the examination and publication of information at the roots of its doctrine
In the early part of the twentieth century, considerable discussion
was had among Church leaders over the reliability of the popular account
of the "King Follett Discourse" found in the manuscript history of the
Church finished by Church Historians in the 1850s. This account was
compiled by Jonathan Grimshaw, one of the Church Historian's staff working
to complete the Manuscript History of the Church (later published as
History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, see below)
from the sources available to the Historian in 1856. Grimshaw used several
of the accounts here, interleaving and in a few cases changing the words
without apparent justification. This created what is, in our opinion,
a somewhat confusing reconstruction. Originally the compilers of the
history first included the Times and Seasons account but this was
crossed out in the manuscript and the Grimshaw account was substituted.
The Grimshaw version was published in the Journal of Discourses
Part of the trouble with Grimshaw's method should be transparent to the reader:
a number of the accounts often contain the same portion of the sermon but
in rather different words. This is especially true of the Joseph Smith diary
record made by Willard Richards.
Richards used particularly interesting phrases
like "if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend
themselves." Based on the other accounts it seems likely that Joseph did
not actually say this, but it represents a clever summary of his thought.
The Woodruff record tends to use somewhat different phrasing and for some
reason Grimshaw included this as extra text in his version, delivering a
rather redundant effect.
Since Woodruff's journal entries were usually not done
"on the spot," but reconstructed from his brief notes of the meeting,
his wording probably reflects his own digestion of the actual
remarks. This does not invalidate the record (in fact it has a remarkable
coherence with the remaining accounts), but it does point to a problem for
Grimshaw's technique. Finally, as noted, Grimshaw seems to invent some
phrasing which weakens some of the points in the available contemporary
We have included the Times and Seasons minutes of the meeting,
which is a fleshed out version of the Bullock and Clayton records who
had been assigned as conference clerks. The Bullock and Clayton accounts
come from their conference minutes filed under General Church Minutes (LDS Archives
call number CR 100 318, Box 1, Folders 19-20.)
It is perhaps the closest available version to the original remarks,
since it was penned by an eyewitness. A note on the back of
of Bullock's minutes says the compilation was made on
the 24th of April for "the press." Bullock's diary for this period
indicates that he was working on the conference minutes for publication in
the Times and Seasons. Hence, Bullock's ms is the only publication
manuscript attempted prior to Joseph Smith's death. Whether Joseph
Smith reviewed Bullock's ms is unknown.
Howard Searle has estimated that available records contain about
30% of the actual sermon.
Considering the fact that Joseph Smith was known to be a rather slow
speaker and that he had been experiencing some lung problems (speakers at
these open-air meetings had nearly to yell to make themselves heard to a
significant extent), this probably underestimates the recorded portion.
Moreover, reviewing the manuscripts suggests that all the major points are
included in a reliable fashion. See Howard C. Searle, "Early Mormon Historiography:
Writing the History of the Mormons," Ph.D. dissertation, UCLA, 1979, p. 277.
At least one other amalgamation of the existing records has been attempted,
[See Brigham Young University Studies 18/winter (1978)], the
results of this attempt have fewer difficulties than the Grimshaw
version. Of course any such attempt will be forced to make thinly supported
decisions at some points.
The sermon was controversial enough among some General Authorities that it
was left out of the seven volume History of the Church when it
was published in the first decades of the 20th century
(volumes 1-6 appeared in the 1902-1912 time period and volume 7 appeared
in 1932). B. H. Roberts, the editor of the History, was upset
by this and published the Grimshaw version himself as a pamphlet in 1913 and
sent it around the Church. President Joseph F. Smith was, with counselors
Anthon H. Lund and Charles W. Penrose suspicious of the sermon and in particular
regarded the doctrine of the eternal nature of man
as a threat to the
complete sovereignty of God.
President Smith prevented the publication of certain
other manuscripts containing the idea and felt the sermon, as written, put forward
other incorrect notions (see note 3 below). As some of the principals in this argument
passed on, the sermon (Grimshaw version) was finally printed in Church
publications again and was placed in its proper place in vol. 6 of the
second (1948) edition of the History and was included in Joseph Fielding Smith's
1938 book Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
1a. Bullock's Times and Seasons amalgamated version was done
the next month after the sermon. It is possible that Joseph
reviewed this; his clerks' diaries do not indicate this one way or the other.
2. Joseph Smith learned Sephardic Hebrew in Kirtland,
Ohio (early 1836) and his pronounciation, reflected in his scribes'
attempted renderings is somewhat different from the now more commonly learned
Ashkenazi. Joseph may have discussed some of these words with the scribes prior
to the conference, and he apparently planned to give this extensive discussion
of doctrine well before the meetings (the opening minutes for April 4 reflect this). For example
see Willard Richards' inclusion of the word "Gnolom" [eternity].
The other scribes do not include Gnolom and possibly Richards was
abbreviating the thought based on his first hand knowledge of the
Book of Abraham text, or the others just left the word out.
For an explanation of Joseph's interesting Hebrew-based argument,
see Kevin L. Barney, "Joseph Smith's Emendation of Hebrew Genesis 1:1,"
Dialogue, A Journal of Mormon Thought, 30/4 (1997) 103-35.
3. The text could suggest either that the child
would never grow after its resurrection or that the body would be unchanged
(in age) from when it was laid in the grave (see
A related question is founded on the answer to this one:
if children are either resurrected as adults or grow to adult size after
the resurrection, what is their fate in the salvic system?
Joseph Smith may have held different opinions at different times
on these matters. The important thing to note here is that the language
in the Woodruff account seems inconclusive. Varying opinions may be
and perhaps were (see below) drawn from it.
On May 18, 1843, William Clayton recorded
Thursday 18th. We left Macedonia about 8 and arrived Carthage at 10.
I asked the Prest. [i.e., Joseph Smith]
wether children who die in infancy will grow.
He answered "no, we shall receive them precisely in the same state as
they died in no larger. They will have as much intelligence as we
shall but shall always remain separate and single. They will have no
increase. Children who are born dead will have full grown bodies being
made up by the resurrection."
While this statement does not address the question of growth after the
resurrection, it suggests that the fates of infants who die are
uniform: they do not "grow up and get married" so to speak
even if they do "grow up." The words "no increase" as they typically appear
in Clayton's journal, refer to the idea that these children will not receive
"exaltation" in the parlance of Mormonism. Of course, Joseph Smith had
stated much earlier than this that resurrected infants inherit the Celestial
glory but this would not conflict with a "no exaltation" doctrine.
Joseph gave a funeral sermon (no contemporary accounts are known) around
the 3rd of October 1843, in which he reportedly said that mothers would
raise their dead infants to adulthood in the resurrection. President Brigham
Young said on several occasions that Joseph preached both ways on the doctrine:
resurrected children would not grow, or they would grow to adult stature.
The question of exaltation for resurrected infants has not been addressed
by Joseph Smith's successors. The remarks in the 7Apr44 sermon suggest
a kind of deification, but its nature is not clear. The 12May44 sermon
(Bullock account- see the link above) hints that exaltation is possible.
Various other remarks by Joseph suggest that resurrected infants will
indeed be joint heirs with Christ, inheriting "thrones, principalities," etc.
Additionally, the Clayton
diary states that stillborn children will be resurrected with
adult-sized bodies, i.e., no growth in stature would be necessary for them
following the resurrection. This idea goes unmentioned in later official
accounts of LDS doctrine. Stillborn children seem to have no official
place in LDS doctrine at present.
The idea that dead children would be resurrected (whether they grow or not)
is not to be confused with the now obscure "baby resurrection doctrine" which
some Latter-day Saints (including Orson Hyde) briefly subscribed to in the
late 1840s. That doctrine was that all the dead would be resurrected by being
born over again as babies.
Later, several individuals including Wilford Woodruff would
state that Joseph Smith taught them in a more specific way in
some of these matters. See Woodruff Journal for August 31,
1861 and Improvement Era 21 (June 1918) pp. 571-573; Messages of
the First Presidency, 5:91-98. A nephew of Joseph Smith, Joseph F. Smith,
who would later become President of the Church in 1901,
held some special concern regarding these doctrines. In particular he was
unsatisfied with the
interpretation of his uncle's remarks that led people to conclude that
resurrected infants would not grow after the resurrection.
Joseph F. Smith's discomfort with
the idea that children who die in infancy would not grow in the resurrection led him to
seek out and record more specific accounts of Joseph Smith's teachings on
this subject. While he finds evidence against a "no growth" doctrine,
he does not specifically address any "no exaltation" doctrine.
During a meeting held in the Salt Lake Temple in February 1918, President
Smith outlined his concern and his search for a satisfactory resolution:
In 1854, I met with my aunt, the wife of my uncle, Don Carlos Smith, who
was the mother of that little girl that Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was
speaking about, when he told the mother that she should have the joy, the
pleasure, and the satisfaction of rearing that child, after the resurrection,
until it reached the full stature of its spirit; and that it would be a far
greater joy than she could possibly have in mortality, because she would be
free from the sorrow and fear and disabilities of mortal life, and she would
know more than she could know in this life. I met that widow, the mother of
that child, and she told me this circumstance and bore testimony to me that
this was what the Prophet Joseph Smith said when he was speaking at the
funeral of her little daughter. Well, I thought it was almost too good. I have
read Joseph's discourse at the death of King Follett, as at first published,
and I did not believe, never did believe that he was correctly reported or
that those who died in infancy would remain as little children after the
resurrection. Never had it entered my soul as a possibility that such could be
the case; yet, I did not have the courage to say so, although I had been told
this circumstance. I really did not care to mention it, because I knew the
strong opinions that some people had in regard to little children being
resurrected and, everlastingly and forever after to remain as little children.
I did not believe it, and this testimony of my aunt was a consolation to me
that was unspeakable, because I could believe that was true.
Confirmations of the Testimony
One day I was conversing with a brother-in-law of mine, Lorin Walker, who
married my oldest sister. In the course of the conversation he happened to
mention that he was present at the funeral of my cousin Sophronia, and that he
heard the Prophet Joseph Smith declare the very words that Aunt Agnes had told
I said to him, "Lorin, what did the Prophet say?" and he repeated, as
nearly as he could remember, what the Prophet Joseph said in relation to
little children. The body remains undeveloped in the grave, but the spirit
returns to God who gave it. Afterwards, in the resurrection, the spirit and
body will be reunited; the body will develop and grow to the full stature of
the spirit, and the resurrected soul will go on to perfection. So I had the
statement of two witnesses who heard this doctrine announced by the Prophet
Joseph Smith, the source of intelligence; and I felt strengthened, but even
then I did not feel that it would be well for me, only a boy, to say much
about this principle. I ventured to say some few things, but I was very
cautious for a number of years.
Eventually I was in conversation with Sister M. Isabella Home. She began
to relate to me the circumstance of her being present at the funeral that I
refer to, when Joseph spoke of the death of little children, their
resurrection as little children, and of the glory, and honor, and joy, and
happiness the mother would have in rearing her little children in the
resurrection to the full stature of their spirits. "Well," she said, "I heard
Joseph say that. I was at that funeral." Sister Isabella Horne told me this.
Then I said to her: "Why haven't you spoken about it before? How is it
you have kept it to yourself all these long years? Why haven't you let the
Church know something about this declaration of the Prophet?"
She replied: "I did not know whether it was my duty to do so, or whether
it would be proper or not."
I said: "Who else was there?"
"My husband was there."
"Does he remember it?"
"Yes, he remembers it."
"Well, will you and Brother Horne give me an affidavit in writing stating
the fact, and let it be sworn to?"
She said, "With the greatest of pleasure."
So I have the testimony in affidavit form of Brother and Sister Horne, in
addition to the testimony of my aunt, and the testimony of my brother-in-law,
in relation to the Prophet Joseph's remarks at that funeral.
Just a little while later, to my joy and satisfaction, the first man I
ever heard mention it in public was Franklin D. Richards; and when he spoke of
it, I felt in my soul: the truth has come out. The truth will prevail. It is
mighty, and it will live; for there is no power that can destroy it.
Presidents Woodruff and Cannon approved of the doctrine and after that I
My brethren and sisters, the Lord bless you. If any of you have any fault
to find with me, come to me and tell me about it. If you do not find me just
humble enough, and willing to be corrected and bow to that which is good and
right, you may set me down as not living up to my doctrine; for I believe in
that doctrine. If I had anything against any of you that I felt was worth
while saying something to you about, and that would probably help you to
rectify a mistake, I would go to you and help you to correct it.
Doctrine to be Weighed Carefully
It is a good thing for us not to attempt to advance new doctrine, or new
and advanced thought in relation to principles and doctrines pertaining to, or
presumed to pertain to the gospel of Jesus Christ, without weighing it
carefully, with the experience of years, before you attempt to make a
doctrinal test and to advance it to the people of the Lord. There is so much
simple truth, necessary to be understood, that has been revealed to us in the
gospel that it is extreme folly in us to attempt to go beyond the truth that
has been revealed, until we have mastered and can comprehend the truth that we
have. There is a great deal within our reach that we have not yet mastered.
Copyright © 2000, 2007. W. V. Smith and the Book of Abraham Project.
All rights reserved. Files in
The Parallel Joseph may be read at this site, but may not be
copied to reside anywhere else. They may not be printed or distributed
in any manner without written permission of the copyright holder.